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My goal is to help my clients navigate the “residential investment property” market; make some money and have some fun in the process. This real estate market is ripe for the investor. In addition, I would like to help the home buyer and home seller. I am part of an 80,000+ agent network that spans all of North America. Being on the “inside” I can find you the “right” agent to handle your specific needs no matter where in North America you may reside. I have been in and arround the real estate market for most of my professional life and want to be your resource for making money in this market. I have been negotiating all of my life and want to negotiate great deals for you. Following is my contact information and my philosophies: Mel Kaye (Broker Associate) Keller Williams Realty Direct: PCH.MEL.KAYE (724.635.5293) Mobile: 805.300.1769 Fax: 888.371.1190 Email: YESmelYES@gmail.com Website: http://melkaye.com Skype: Mel.Kaye Lic #: 00742678 340 N. Westlake Blvd., Suite 100 Westlake Village, CA 91362


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Tuesday, October 21, 2008

All Dogs Go To Heaven

I received this in my email and just had to share it. Enjoy





































































52 comments:

Sandee (Comedy +) said...

Well, now we all know. Bwahahahaha. Have a great day Mel. :)

Max said...

Hey Mel,

ROFL...ROFL...ROFL...
LOL LOL LOL LOL....oh....oh....LOL LOL LOL LOL!

Well, even though I am not a Catholic I am inclined to sympathise with the Catholic cause: wouldn't it be nice if we could meet our dogs in heaven?
As I told you, I am still thinking about if either dogs have souls or not; but if God created everything and brought animals to live they must have some kind of spirit, don't they?
However, the bible says that only humans were made to His image, so I still need to think about this a little further.

On the other hand, we could look at this from another perspective: "All dogs [read: wretched men] go to heaven" and in this case they may very well be right, since I don't believe in hell (the most common concept of it).

Great post, Mel :D!
BTW did you read (in my blog) that you and I should run for President and Vice-President of the US? Apparently our rhetoric is appreciated :)!

Cheers

SlogBite said...

Sandee,
We sure do.

SlogBite said...

Let's face it max, we make a good team....."Mel & Max"

BTW, I received something in my email today that seems apropos here:

A Dog's Purpose (from a 6-year old).

Being a veterinarian, I had been called to examine a ten-year-old Irish Wolf hound named Belker. The dog's owners, Ron, his wife Lisa, and their little boy Shane, were all very attached to Belker, and they were hoping for a miracle.

I examined Belker and found he was dying of cancer. I told the family we couldn't do anything for Belker, and offered to perform the euthanasia procedure for the old dog in their home.

As we made arrangements, Ron and Lisa told me they thought it would be good for six-year-old Shane to observe the procedure. They felt as though Shane might learn something from the experience.

The next day, I felt the familiar catch in my throat as Belker's family surrounded him. Shane seemed so calm, petting the old dog for the last time, that I wondered if he understood what was going on. Within a few minutes, Belker slipped peacefully away.

The little boy seemed to accept Belker's transition without any difficulty or confusion. We sat together for a while after Belker's Death, wondering aloud about the sad fact that animal lives are shorter than human lives. Shane, who had been listening quietly, piped up, 'I know why.'

Startled, we all turned to him. What came out of his mouth next stunned me. I'd never heard a more comforting explanation.

He said, 'People are born so that they can learn how to live a good Life -- like loving everybody all the time and being nice, right?' The Six-year-old continued, 'Well, dogs already know how to do that, so they don't have to stay as long.'

Live simply.

Love generously.

Care deeply.

Speak kindly.

Remember, if a dog was the teacher you would learn things like:

When loved ones come home, always run to greet them.

Never pass up the opportunity to go for a joyride.

Allow the experience of fresh air and the wind in your face to be pure Ecstasy..

Take naps.

Stretch before rising.

Run, romp, and play daily.

Thrive on attention and let people touch you.

Avoid biting when a simple growl will do.

On warm days, stop to lie on your back on the grass.

On hot days, drink lots of water and lie under a shady tree.

When you're happy, dance around and wag your entire body.

Delight in the simple joy of a long walk.

Be loyal.

Never pretend to be something you're not.

If what you want lies buried, dig until you find it.

When someone is having a bad day, be silent, sit close by, and nuzzle them gently.

ENJOY EVERY MOMENT OF EVERY DAY!

Max said...

Hey Mel,

"Let's face it max, we make a good team....."Mel & Max""

LOL yes, we do, mate :D!

"BTW, I received something in my email today that seems apropos here:"

Let's hear it..

"He said, 'People are born so that they can learn how to live a good Life -- like loving everybody all the time and being nice, right?' The Six-year-old continued, 'Well, dogs already know how to do that, so they don't have to stay as long.'"

The kid knows it! If he were my child I think I'd be overwhelmed by his intelligence...
And what he said makes sense, utter sense...hey, are you trying to help me considering dogs as having a soul?

"When loved ones come home, always run to greet them."

So true...

"Never pass up the opportunity to go for a joyride."

lol yep...

"Allow the experience of fresh air and the wind in your face to be pure Ecstasy.."

My cocker spaniel used to love this...

"Run, romp, and play daily."

Yep...

"Thrive on attention and let people touch you. "

No, mine didn't like this...

"Delight in the simple joy of a long walk."

She hated this...

"Be loyal."

That she was...

"When someone is having a bad day, be silent, sit close by, and nuzzle them gently. "

Ooh, so sweet! She also did this...but humans never do: boy, they can talk! LOL

"ENJOY EVERY MOMENT OF EVERY DAY!"

Amen!

This was marvellous, Mel! Thanks :D!

Michelle Dawn said...

I really enjoyed that. Thanks

Michelle Dawn said...

When you get a chance check out my new layout.

Livingsword said...

LOL LOL

Well I suppose the question is how does the dog get to Heaven

If the dog is trying to get to Heaven by “being good” or following “religious rules” they will not get to Heaven….

One of the top questions pastors get asked is if people’s pets will be in Heaven…how could people even think a cat may go to Heaven? :)

Max said...

LS (& Mel),

So, you don't believe animals have souls? (help me learning more about this)

Livingsword said...

Max and Mel…..

First Mel I forgot to mention that my wife quite liked the kitten and puppy food video and also this post.

Now to the question of will dogs/animals be in Heaven?

Numerous times in the Bible (Old and New Testaments) animals are literally designated as being in Heaven (this is excluding the figurative animals). The question is “are these animals a separate creation? A new creation? Or animals from here?

Personally I am an animal lover (and adored my dog Kimba) but I don’t care one way or the other in the direct presences of God life will be perpetual awe with or without our pets or animals from here…I am fine with His perfect choice in this matter and all others…however as He deemed it good to create these animals here it seems they may be there also…with or without souls…after all there will be trees there and they don’t have souls…

SlogBite said...

Max & LS,

Doesn't intent play a role here. Good & bad are based on the intent. I don't think that a dog or a cat has the intent of being "bad."

SlogBite said...

LS & Max,
LS, I am glad that Chocolate Girl enjoyed these posts.

With me, quoting the bible holds no interest for me. As previously state, I am Jewish by heritage and basic beliefs, but agnostic in regards to heaven and hell. Nothing that is written in the Bible can or will sway me.

I work off of logic (which may have no meaning once we pass) and what I believe. A lot of that probably coincides with the Bible and lot flies in the face of the Bible.

I absolutely believe in souls. I believe that there is a differential between "Living vs. not Living" and "Thought vs no thought." In other words animals vs plants.

I am sure there is an absolute line somewhere, and one day we shall know it.

In the meantime, I believe that animals have an existence beyond this one.

Livingsword said...

Mel and Max….

How many puppies play fetch on the head of a pin? :)

This is the theological area we have strayed off leash into! lol

Theologians have discussed this matter quite extensively and there have been times in history when the majority believed that animals were “soulish” not to be understood as the exact same as human souls.

I think this is an area where we have insufficient data to assess either way, now theologians like all of us don’t like that. We want answers for everything…

Most theologians believe that unborn human babies go to Heaven as do those who cannot as Mel said form intent (the mentally disabled and small children). They presume upon God’s mercy and grace for this…as we are all at the moment of conception broken (all of creation is broken) and at civil war with God (He wins in the end) all of us need grace however grace is a gift that one must also be willing to receive which could mean a designation of ability to understand….

As God is perfectly just most believe that such as these go directly to His presence.

The Bible is not explicit on this topic…however we are told of David…

21 His attendants asked him, "Why are you acting this way? While the child was alive, you fasted and wept, but now that the child is dead, you get up and eat!"

22 He answered, "While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept. I thought, 'Who knows? The LORD may be gracious to me and let the child live.' 23 But now that he is dead, why should I go on fasting? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me."
- - 2 Samuel 12:21-23

It seems that David believed he would go to Heaven and his child is already there…This is it seems not enough to support the belief of such as these going to Heaven but there is more…

1 At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, "Who, then, is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?"

2 He called a little child, whom he placed among them. 3 And he said: "Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4 Therefore, whoever takes a humble place—becoming like this child—is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. 5 And whoever welcomes one such child in my name welcomes me.

6 "If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them if a large millstone were hung around their neck and they were drowned in the depths of the sea.
- - Matthew 18:1-6

This passage shows the immense love that God has for children (the word used in the Greek would be for small children that would not be able to form intent). This passage is also being used as a learning tool by Jesus as the children represent His followers…

This concept is then built upon….

13 Then people brought little children to Jesus for him to place his hands on them and pray for them. But the disciples rebuked them.
14 Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these." 15 When he had placed his hands on them, he went on from there.
- - Matthew 19:13-15

But perhaps this passage spreads the most light in this topic…

16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 All those who do evil hate the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. 21 But those who live by the truth come into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.
- - John 3:16-21

I will not inundate you with other passages (Luke 10:16, John 12:48, 1 Thessalonians 4:8) but it seems that although babies like all humans at the moment of conception are under original sin and children do have a propensity to sin (bullies in the sandbox) but their lack of ability to receive light (some intent is here in view) strongly suggests that we can presume upon God’s mercy here…If they have been unable to receive light…

So what does this mean in regards to animals?

Well we are back to the soul question, but of course even if they have no soul God may choose to bring that part of His creation to Him…like trees which are also living…If animals are also viewed from how much light they can receive and they have souls we also have to question if they go to the same place!

Short answer we do not know with exactitude…I will trust God on this..

Max said...

LS and Mel,

"Numerous times in the Bible (Old and New Testaments) animals are literally designated as being in Heaven (this is excluding the figurative animals). The question is “are these animals a separate creation? A new creation? Or animals from here?"

Good question....perhaps it is the form found to tell us that animals do have souls after all, and that they do go to heaven. And they might not even have the animal form, they may be regular souls...Ai, this could lead to other Eastern theories....

"Personally I am an animal lover (and adored my dog Kimba) but I don’t care one way or the other in the direct presences of God life will be perpetual awe with or without our pets or animals from here…I am fine with His perfect choice in this matter and all others…however as He deemed it good to create these animals here it seems they may be there also…with or without souls…after all there will be trees there and they don’t have souls…"

Well, I don't think there are trees in heaven....but I might be wrong.

SlogBite said...

LS & Max,

Max, I would love you input on this.

There is so much we differ on like "Original Sin" and the role of Jesus. I do not believe that you and I will ever agree on these, but that's quite alright.

On short, I do not believe in Original Sin, and I do not believe that Jesus was anything more than a great man. He was the son of go, as we are all the sons and daughters of go.



You have hit my bottom line with this. And, on this we absolutely agree "Short answer we do not know with exactitude…I will trust God on this.."

Max said...

Mel & LS,

"Doesn't intent play a role here. Good & bad are based on the intent. I don't think that a dog or a cat has the intent of being "bad.""

I think a cat or a dog may have the intent of being bad (when they attack people with no reason) - and if they have souls, they can be tormented spirits, whose only way to express their torment is by being bad and attacking humans (when not other cats and dogs)....

Max said...

Mel & LS,

"With me, quoting the bible holds no interest for me. As previously state, I am Jewish by heritage and basic beliefs, but agnostic in regards to heaven and hell. Nothing that is written in the Bible can or will sway me."

Agnostic? You don't speak like one, Mel! Agnostic means "Ignorant" and you cannot be labelled as such, for you are not (the discussions we have show me that you know more than you intend to show).
Do you follow the torah, Mel? Or it doesn't mean anything to you either?

"I work off of logic (which may have no meaning once we pass) and what I believe. A lot of that probably coincides with the Bible and lot flies in the face of the Bible."

I hear you!

"I absolutely believe in souls. I believe that there is a differential between "Living vs. not Living" and "Thought vs no thought." In other words animals vs plants."

Once again, I hear you! (are you sure you are agnostic? You seem quite mystical to me [no, LS, there is more to being mystical than Astrology, tarot and etc lol]!)

"I am sure there is an absolute line somewhere, and one day we shall know it."

Only when we desincarnate....

"In the meantime, I believe that animals have an existence beyond this one."

It is starting to make sense...

SlogBite said...

Max,
I do not believe that animals work under the "Good & "Bad" concepts; they work under instinct. Again, when an animal attacks a human, it is instinct and.or recent memories; not intent to be good or bad.

I strongly believe that "Intent " is the key.

Livingsword said...

Mel,

Mel sorry when I posted all the Bible verses I had not yet seen your comment on the Bible. I was not trying to hit you over the head with it, my life is sourced thru it so when questions such as these come up that is where my mind goes however I can participate in a more limited way…I am curious why you don’t find the Bible reasonable…

Why do you have an “absolute” belief in “souls”? (Question…do you believe in absolute truth?) What is it that makes you think that animals have an existence beyond this one?

Max said...

LS & Mel,

"How many puppies play fetch on the head of a pin? :)"

Mine didn't even play fetch....let alone play fecth "on the head of a pin"....

"Theologians have discussed this matter quite extensively and there have been times in history when the majority believed that animals were “soulish” not to be understood as the exact same as human souls."

Well, theologians (two centuries ago) didn't think black people had souls...so....

"I think this is an area where we have insufficient data to assess either way, now theologians like all of us don’t like that. We want answers for everything…"

I liked the way you spoke of the Bible alluding to animals in heaven and such, and perhaps theologians and we could start debating this issue from there....it makes sense.

"Most theologians believe that unborn human babies go to Heaven as do those who cannot as Mel said form intent (the mentally disabled and small children)."

I also believe that unborn babies go to heaven. But I am not sure about the mentally disabled and small children, because I do not know what goes in the mind of a mentally disabled (and I have heard that even some can be evil), I can't assess their intent. Small children are not all innocent and kind and loving...there are evil children (because their soul is tormented).

"They presume upon God’s mercy and grace for this…as we are all at the moment of conception broken (all of creation is broken) and at civil war with God (He wins in the end) all of us need grace however grace is a gift that one must also be willing to receive which could mean a designation of ability to understand…."

I don't agree with this, as you well know, LS.

"It seems that David believed he would go to Heaven and his child is already there…This is it seems not enough to support the belief of such as these going to Heaven but there is more…"

Yes...

"6 "If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them if a large millstone were hung around their neck and they were drowned in the depths of the sea. - - Matthew 18:1-6"

But, in this passage, is Jesus referring to children as human babies, or is he talking of God's children (all "children" who serve Him in truth?)?

"14 Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these." 15 When he had placed his hands on them, he went on from there. - - Matthew 19:13-15"

He is right, a priori children are loving and innocent...but what happens to evil children? Are their the kingdom of heaven too?

"If animals are also viewed from how much light they can receive and they have souls we also have to question if they go to the same place!"

Indeed...but if the bible says that they are in heaven; are you suggesting two heavens?

"Short answer we do not know with exactitude…I will trust God on this.."

Indeed, there is so much we know and some much we do not know...yet, it doesn't mean it is not true :)

Max said...

LS & Mel,

"Max, I would love you input on this."

All right...

"There is so much we differ on like "Original Sin" and the role of Jesus. I do not believe that you and I will ever agree on these, but that's quite alright."

I don't believe in the "Original Sin" either (as LS knows so well); and I also differ from Christians in regards to the role of Jesus (I believe he was indeed born the way he was, but he is not Hashem; he didn't come to save us humans; I believe he was sent to fulfil a task, a special one, as part of God's plan to reunify Jerusalem).

"On short, I do not believe in Original Sin, and I do not believe that Jesus was anything more than a great man. He was the son of go, as we are all the sons and daughters of go."

Jesus was an exceptional man! Great mental powers, excellent healing hands, great debater, he did his job (fulfilled his mission) and that was it.
I agree with Mel: he is just like the rest of us, God's children.

Max said...

Mel,

"I do not believe that animals work under the "Good & "Bad" concepts; they work under instinct."

But if they have souls, they must work under the "Good & Bad" concepts; for souls have these concepts engraved in them.
Now, since they can't express themselves verbally...they may have to act as they were designed to (they are more limited). But this doesn't mean that in the back of their mind they don't know what is good and what is bad...look at dogs, they seem to know this very well (my dog could recognise a bad person and a good one; she knew the difference between good and bad...I don't believe she was an exception)...

"Again, when an animal attacks a human, it is instinct and.or recent memories; not intent to be good or bad."

Recent memories...of what? This life or of a past one?

SlogBite said...

LS & Max,

I have a question I would like to pose. You had both spoken of evil and good children.

What happens with a child, or any person commits untold evil and it is found that it was caused by a chemical imbalance, or a true mental disorder. Is "evil" in the absolute sense (LS, as you asked if I believe in absolute truth) truly definable?

Even though the act was evil, again it goes to the intent.

Max said...

Mel & LS,

"I have a question I would like to pose. You had both spoken of evil and good children."

Shoot....!

"What happens with a child, or any person commits untold evil and it is found that it was caused by a chemical imbalance, or a true mental disorder. Is "evil" in the absolute sense (LS, as you asked if I believe in absolute truth) truly definable?"

Hmmm...what caused the chemical imbalance or the mental disorder? Is it Karmic? If Karmic then the practiced evil comes with a purpose.

"Even though the act was evil, again it goes to the intent."

Intent on whose part? God's or the creature's? If God's then I agree with you...

SlogBite said...

Max,
Intent of the mind/soul of the individual committing the act. After all we all have free choice, as opposed to destiny (everything has already been determined.)

Max said...

Mel,

"Intent of the mind/soul of the individual committing the act. After all we all have free choice, as opposed to destiny (everything has already been determined.)"

Ah, yes...even intent may be influenced by Karma.
Indeed, we have free choice in selecting the way that suits us better to fulfil our destiny (It is like you have D (destiny) and three roads that will lead you there: A, B, C. Now you have to choose which road you wish to walk to get to D - that is free choice to me).
Destiny is our mission on earth. It is not an excuse to justify the bad choices we make. The only thing that has been pre-determined is one's mission, that's it.

SlogBite said...

Max,
Ahhh, ones mission.....I think we are in agreement.

However, the mission can be debatable.

My thought is simply to leave this place a better place for having been here.

What say you?

Sometimes Saintly Nick said...

Heaven would be a very sad place without the souls of all sentient beings.

SlogBite said...

Hi Nick,
I absolutely agree!!!!

Max said...

Mel,

"However, the mission can be debatable."

How so?

"My thought is simply to leave this place a better place for having been here."

Ah, it is a good thought indeed (are you referring to the concept of Tikkun Olam?). But I do not share it entirely: we are here to learn things and thus evolve (so that we come to understand a little better the Creator's state of mind) and, fulfil His mission for each one of us.
Now, if we manage to leave a better environment for the next soul coming to evolve, the better; because this will also help decreasing the cycle of rebirth (ah, you might not believe in reincarnation).

It is our responsibility to improve this world, so that the following souls can focus more on their personal evolution and Karma burning.

SlogBite said...

Max,
I am not sure about reincarnation (as if anyone is sure about anything.)

"It is our responsibility to improve this world, so that the following souls can focus more on their personal evolution and Karma burning."

-I don't know if I believe this exactly, but is sure does sound good. I will have to give it more though and read everything that you write (well, mostly everything.)

Max said...

Mel,

"I am not sure about reincarnation (as if anyone is sure about anything.)"

I understand. But doesn't make sense to you that certain memories must stem from previous existences (for example, when we swear that we have met a person before; when we remember certain places without even having been there "before"; clicking with certain cultures; etc)?

"I don't know if I believe this exactly, but is sure does sound good. I will have to give it more though and read everything that you write (well, mostly everything.)"

I know how you feel. Please do...Ah, Mel...I am not an authority on these things, I simply read, think (just like you) and experienced some stuff while growing up, that's all! Notwithstanding, if you feel like you learn anything from what I write...man, you make my writing worthwhile *bowing*!

Amel's Realm said...

BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HE HE HE HE HO HO HO HO...So crazyyyyyyyyyyyyy!!!!!!! THANKS for the laugh, Mel!!!

SlogBite said...

Hi Amel,
It is quite funny, but did you see the conversation that it sparked?

Shinade said...

Oh Mel,
it's been way too long since my last visit.

This is great and makes a great statement defending my reasoning for refusing to be affiliated with any established religious organization.

I am just simply a Christian. And I know where Max 's view point is at.

But, I think we will all be surprised when we actually do get to heaven.

I haven't found anything yet that has convinced me any different.

So in my heaven my dogs will be there.

P.S.

You might want to go back and visit Max's site again.

LOL...I struck again!

Have a great day Mel:-))))

SlogBite said...

Hi Shinade,

I am Jewish, however, as you stated, in my heaven, my dogs are also waiting for me.

Oh, I know you struck again, and this time with FORCE. I am very curious to see how LS reacts.

Livingsword said...

Max and Mel

You said:
Well, theologians (two centuries ago) didn't think black people had souls...so....

I respond:
Would you care to name names?

My previous comment plus your response:
"Most theologians believe that unborn human babies go to Heaven as do those who cannot as Mel said form intent (the mentally disabled and small children)."
>>>I also believe that unborn babies go to heaven. But I am not sure about the mentally disabled and small children, because I do not know what goes in the mind of a mentally disabled (and I have heard that even some can be evil), I can't assess their intent. Small children are not all innocent and kind and loving...there are evil children (because their soul is tormented).

I respond:
Do you believe a child should be treated the same as an adult in a court of law?

My quote and your response…
"6 "If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them if a large millstone were hung around their neck and they were drowned in the depths of the sea. - - Matthew 18:1-6"
>>>But, in this passage, is Jesus referring to children as human babies, or is he talking of God's children (all "children" who serve Him in truth?)?

My response:
The little ones spoken of are young children well before the teens…BUT he is using those young children as an example of His children His genuine followers..

My quote your response…
"14 Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these." 15 When he had placed his hands on them, he went on from there. - - Matthew 19:13-15"
>>>>He is right, a priori children are loving and innocent...but what happens to evil children? Are their the kingdom of heaven too?

I respond:
Good question, the little children are representative of Jesus followers in that they will come to Him. Followers of Jesus do not go to Heaven to be with Him by being good…it is by grace…The question is when does a physical child cease being a child? Theologians have placed various positions on age but it seems that the best answer to that is only God knows as He knows everybody better than they know themselves…

My quote your response:
"If animals are also viewed from how much light they can receive and they have souls we also have to question if they go to the same place!"
>>>Indeed...but if the bible says that they are in heaven; are you suggesting two heavens?

I respond:
Well technically there are three heavens (note small “h”) the heavens of the Earth’s atmosphere, the heavens as in space (planets, stars etc) and Heaven God’s abode…However there is an excellent argument to be made that wherever God manifests His presence is Heaven since Heaven is defined by His presence…That being said there is no doubt a place Heaven….Huge topic…

Livingsword said...

Mel and Max….

Mel:
"There is so much we differ on like "Original Sin" and the role of Jesus. I do not believe that you and I will ever agree on these, but that's quite alright."

Max:
I don't believe in the "Original Sin" either (as LS knows so well); and I also differ from Christians in regards to the role of Jesus (I believe he was indeed born the way he was, but he is not Hashem; he didn't come to save us humans; I believe he was sent to fulfil a task, a special one, as part of God's plan to reunify Jerusalem).

New…LS:
Original Sin simply refers to the events in the Garden of Eden leading to the Fall of humanity and the entirety of creation….Max do you believe that Adam and Eve were real people that sinned against God? As their children and living in a Fallen creation we are all sinners…I am willing to admit I am a sinner…

Mel:
"On short, I do not believe in Original Sin, and I do not believe that Jesus was anything more than a great man. He was the son of go, as we are all the sons and daughters of go."

Max:
Jesus was an exceptional man! Great mental powers, excellent healing hands, great debater, he did his job (fulfilled his mission) and that was it.
I agree with Mel: he is just like the rest of us, God's children.

New…LS:
Jesus claimed to be God. If His claim is false then He is a liar and is not worthy to be followed…

We are all God’s children in that He is our Creator but we are not all His children in that His Parentage must be received and acknowledged by the child…

Very interesting conversation you guys!

Please do not take my presentation of thoughts as an attempt at "conversion"…

Livingsword said...

Mel and Max….

Mel:
"I do not believe that animals work under the "Good & "Bad" concepts; they work under instinct."

Max:
But if they have souls, they must work under the "Good & Bad" concepts; for souls have these concepts engraved in them.
Now, since they can't express themselves verbally...they may have to act as they were designed to (they are more limited). But this doesn't mean that in the back of their mind they don't know what is good and what is bad...look at dogs, they seem to know this very well (my dog could recognise a bad person and a good one; she knew the difference between good and bad...I don't believe she was an exception)...

New..LS:
I would say at this point that animal sentience has not been proven either scientifically or Biblically…I am inclined to agree with Mel that they act more on instinct but I think some of them may have a bit higher intelligence than it appears..this is an area I find very interesting…

Max the description you provided for your dog is I believe instinct…not intelligence or self awareness…Also we humans often project ourselves upon animals (anthropomorphizing)

As nobody gets to Heaven by being good the “Good and Bad” does not affect this outcome…

Mel:
"Again, when an animal attacks a human, it is instinct and.or recent memories; not intent to be good or bad."

Max:
Recent memories...of what? This life or of a past one?

New…LS:
LOL Max…How about Pavlov’s dog…There are other animals more intelligent than dogs…

Livingsword said...

Mel and Max….

Mel:
I have a question I would like to pose. You had both spoken of evil and good children.
What happens with a child, or any person commits untold evil and it is found that it was caused by a chemical imbalance, or a true mental disorder. Is "evil" in the absolute sense (LS, as you asked if I believe in absolute truth) truly definable?
Even though the act was evil, again it goes to the intent.

I respond:
Excellent question!

I would say a person that is truly mentally insane is not responsible for their actions but that does not stop the actions from being evil. (Actually people usually like to twist this the other way as they can’t believe somebody could be enormously evil so they like to think they are insane).

Evil is any thought, action, word or deed that militates against God…sin.

Mel stop hedging your bets :) is there absolute truth?

Livingsword said...

Mel and Max….

Mel’s comment..
Intent of the mind/soul of the individual committing the act. After all we all have free choice, as opposed to destiny (everything has already been determined.)

I respond:
We have free will under the Sovereignty of God…God does not for example force us to sin…everything we do is not predetermined…however God does know every choice that will be made and every possible choice that can be made…Plus He does choose at times to intervene in His creation…If one believes in God as our Creator then we accept that He owns the place and can intervene if He wants to…

Livingsword said...

Max and Mel…

Mel said…
"Intent of the mind/soul of the individual committing the act. After all we all have free choice, as opposed to destiny (everything has already been determined.)"

Max said….
Ah, yes...even intent may be influenced by Karma.
Indeed, we have free choice in selecting the way that suits us better to fulfil our destiny (It is like you have D (destiny) and three roads that will lead you there: A, B, C. Now you have to choose which road you wish to walk to get to D - that is free choice to me).
Destiny is our mission on earth. It is not an excuse to justify the bad choices we make. The only thing that has been pre-determined is one's mission, that's it.

LS responds…
There is no Karma in the sense of dieing and coming back to Earth in another body…

Max if A, B, C, all lead to D then there is no free choice…The “mission” is a fraud…

Does God force us to sin?

SlogBite said...

LS & Max,
"We have free will under the Sovereignty of God…God does not for example force us to sin…everything we do is not predetermined…however God does know every choice that will be made and every possible choice that can be made…Plus He does choose at times to intervene in His creation…If one believes in God as our Creator then we accept that He owns the place and can intervene if He wants to…"

-How do you see God intervening? By death, natural disaster, windfall.........then that takes away the "free choice"?

-As for the rest, I'll let you and Max dual it out. I will watch intently!!!

SlogBite said...

LS & Max,

Absolute Truth? I have been giving this some thought. Let's put it this way: I don't believe in absolute anything. Everything is shades of gray, even good and evil. Absolute refers to EVERYTHING; universal, inter dimensional, the 1% we know and the 99% we don't know (relative percentages.) So how can anything be absolute, including truth?

Max said...

LS & Mel,

"Would you care to name names?"

No, I wouldn't.

"Do you believe a child should be treated the same as an adult in a court of law?"

In some cases, yes.

"The little ones spoken of are young children well before the teens…BUT he is using those young children as an example of His children His genuine followers.."

Oh, I get it...

"Good question, the little children are representative of Jesus followers in that they will come to Him. Followers of Jesus do not go to Heaven to be with Him by being good…it is by grace…The question is when does a physical child cease being a child? Theologians have placed various positions on age but it seems that the best answer to that is only God knows as He knows everybody better than they know themselves…"

So when theologians can't explain something they come out with "only God knows"? They are right though...and that is why I find it ridiculous when people from several religions attack each other saying that this and that is wrong, that this one or that one is wrong/right....

"Well technically there are three heavens (note small “h”) the heavens of the Earth’s atmosphere, the heavens as in space (planets, stars etc) and Heaven God’s abode…However there is an excellent argument to be made that wherever God manifests His presence is Heaven since Heaven is defined by His presence…That being said there is no doubt a place Heaven….Huge topic… "

I see....so, your three heavens is what mysticals call the realms (physical, the in-between and Heaven)?

Max said...

LS & Mel,

"Original Sin simply refers to the events in the Garden of Eden leading to the Fall of humanity and the entirety of creation….Max do you believe that Adam and Eve were real people that sinned against God? As their children and living in a Fallen creation we are all sinners…I am willing to admit I am a sinner…"

I believe that Adam and Even were real people that betrayed God's trust.
Although I may be a sinner, I do not focus on that; I prefer to focus on fulfilling my mission & on the my effort to do more good than bad

"Jesus claimed to be God. If His claim is false then He is a liar and is not worthy to be followed…"

Jesus was not God, period.

"We are all God’s children in that He is our Creator but we are not all His children in that His Parentage must be received and acknowledged by the child…"

And what if I say that I acknowledge His Parentage?

"Very interesting conversation you guys!"

Thanks, LS; same here :D!

"Please do not take my presentation of thoughts as an attempt at "conversion"…"

LOL darling, not even if you wished really hard!

SlogBite said...

Max & LS,

"So when theologians can't explain something they come out with "only God knows"? They are right though...and that is why I find it ridiculous when people from several religions attack each other saying that this and that is wrong, that this one or that one is wrong/right...."

-I am in absolute agreement with your comment!! For one group to say that their's is the only way is absolutely ludicrous.

SlogBite said...

Max & LS,

"Jesus was not God, period."
-You go girl!!

This is like watching a tennis match with two pros playing. I am a semi-pro, but getting better with every stroke that you guys make.

I LOVE this!!!!

Max said...

Mel & LS,

"You go girl!!"

*High Five*!

"This is like watching a tennis match with two pros playing. I am a semi-pro, but getting better with every stroke that you guys make."

LOL I have been doing this with LS for a long time now (more or less 12 months)! You wouldn't imagine the debates we had on these issues on his blog - we spent months discussing Jesus and God and the Bible! We threw Bible quotes at each other...Mel, we are crazy! LOL
LOL you are hardly a semi-pro...but I know what you mean :D!

"I LOVE this!!!!"

Me too :D!

Amel's Realm said...

Yes, I noticed the crazy conversation. Sometimes people take things too far! And it seems that they'll still carry on the conversation no matter what. Oh dear!!!

PinoyApache said...

That's the beauty of free speech...and free DSL

Angelika said...

Look for your High Five from me HERE.